[Air-L] The difficult conversation we don't seem to be having

Marcela Canavarro mcanavarro at gmail.com
Tue Jan 23 08:01:56 PST 2024


It is impossible to dialogue when any critical opinion to the state of
Israel is taken as anti-semitism and jew-hating.

It explains A LOT what is going on in Gaza and why the international
community tend to defend the other side.

Intolerance for the difference. Not quite different from what Hamas did -
except on the extension of the damage.

Shame on you, Israel.
The Palestinian state must be recognized ASAP!!




Em terça-feira, 23 de janeiro de 2024, Sky Croeser via Air-L <
air-l at listserv.aoir.org> escreveu:

> As I asked of Vikki, I would repeat my question whether this distaste for
> collective punishment (even at the level of reduced access to academic
> opportunities) might extend to some public statement in support of
> Palestinian academics and academic institutions under attack, without any
> call for involvement in the BDS movement?
>
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2024 at 11:13 am, Alper, Meryl via Air-L <
> air-l at listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
>
> > I echo and wholeheartedly agree with Vikki. This is an incredibly complex
> > issue for which there is deep generational, intergenerational, and
> ongoing
> > trauma for Palestinians and Israelis. It is not a topic on which there
> will
> > uniform agreement among AoIR membership—nor should there be. As a society
> > with a global membership, we have a wide range of views and lived
> > experiences.
> >
> > Moreover, the notion of boycotting academic institutions in Israeli is
> > antisemitic, if not in intention, then at the very least in practice.
> Calls
> > for it historically have a chilling effect on Jews and Israelis inside
> and
> > outside of the academy, as they did in the Soviet USSR.
> >
> > Meryl
> >
> > From: Air-L <air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org> on behalf of Katz, Vikki
> > via Air-L <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> > Date: Monday, January 22, 2024 at 1:15 PM
> > To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>, Ayelet
> > Baram-Tsabari <ayelet at technion.ac.il>, g. tavmen <mail2gunes at yahoo.co.uk
> >,
> > Bolsover, Gillian <Gillian.Bolsover at hpi.de>
> > Subject: Re: [Air-L] The difficult conversation we don't seem to be
> having
> > Let me be a voice to say that I absolutely oppose AoIR making a statement
> > an organizational statement on an issue with the complexity, deep roots,
> > and deep pain and loss for both Palestinians and Israelis, which its
> > members would oppose or sign from the comfort of lives thousands of miles
> > away from the conflict. If individual members want to make statements for
> > others to sign that go beyond the numerous public statements already
> > available, they should do so. Pushing for an organizational effort will
> > tear at the fabric of this community and compromise trust that will be
> hard
> > to repair.
> >
> > One need look no further than the response to Ayelet Baram-Tsabari who
> was
> > brave enough to post on this thread, with deep sympathy for the plight of
> > Gazan civilians, and who nonetheless was immediately painted as a
> > right-winger with demands that she speak for all Israelis and/or the
> > Israeli goverment. We know the technologies and platforms we study are
> > settings where nuance and civility devolve quickly on such emotionally
> > charged issues. The suggestion to boycott Israeli institutions that
> > allegedly side with the current government—thereby excommunicating the
> > scholars who work within them, many of whom spent most of 2023 in the
> > streets protesting this very government—is abhorrent.
> >
> > I hope any moves forward here will remain individual and not become AoIR
> > statements.
> >
> > Vikki
> >
> > --
> > Vikki Katz, Ph.D.
> > Professor | Chapman University School of Communication
> > 1 University Drive, Orange CA 92866
> >
> > Editor | Journal of Children and Media<
> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tandfonline.com%2Floi%2Frchm20&data=05%
> 7C02%7Cm.alper%40northeastern.edu%7C3f38d0637ddb494ab08508dc1b7610fa%
> 7Ca8eec281aaa34daeac9b9a398b9215e7%7C0%7C0%7C638415441135799411%7CUnknown%
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> 2FtJzzygbrkQJg0wXS5XHr2NB9i2GbOTK7w%3D&reserved=0
> > <https://www.tandfonline.com/loi/rchm20>>
> >
> > Cell: 310.918.0428  | Website<
> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vikkikatz.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cm.alper%
> 40northeastern.edu%7C3f38d0637ddb494ab08508dc1b7610fa%
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> 2FbcTTmL5E6xtMo2T%2BINQfu98%3D&reserved=0
> > <http://www.vikkikatz.com/>>  | Faculty Profile<
> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%2F%2Fwww.chapman.edu%2Four-faculty%2Fvikki-katz&
> data=05%7C02%7Cm.alper%40northeastern.edu%7C3f38d0637ddb494ab08508dc1b76
> 10fa%7Ca8eec281aaa34daeac9b9a398b9215e7%7C0%7C0%7C638415441135817956%
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> 2BiYwkujZcujooGZDYooxzbVDI%2B7WmY%3D&reserved=0
> > <https://www.chapman.edu/our-faculty/vikki-katz>>
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Air-L <air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org> on behalf of Bolsover,
> > Gillian via Air-L <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2024 5:01 AM
> > To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>; Ayelet
> > Baram-Tsabari <ayelet at technion.ac.il>; g. tavmen <mail2gunes at yahoo.co.uk
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Air-L] The difficult conversation we don't seem to be
> having
> >
> > External Message
> >
> >
> > [External Message]
> >
> > I support the idea of AoIR issuing a statement, as well as the idea of
> > focusing in that on the issues that our community is most affected by or
> > able to take action in respect of (in particular the effects on students,
> > academics and education in Gaza as well as articulating any principles
> that
> > AoIR members are encouraged to follow, such as proposed boycotts).
> >
> > I understand this will be hard in such as large, diverse and bottom-up
> > community, but I appreciate the bottom-up efforts to bring this about.
> >
> > On the debate, I believe it is imperative that we are able to mention the
> > suffering of one group without that necessarily implying the discounting
> of
> > the suffering of another.
> > ________________________________
> > Von: Air-L <air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org> im Auftrag von g. tavmen
> via
> > Air-L <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> > Gesendet: Montag, 22. Januar 2024 12:34
> > An: air-l at listserv.aoir.org <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>; Ayelet
> > Baram-Tsabari <ayelet at technion.ac.il>
> > Betreff: Re: [Air-L] The difficult conversation we don't seem to be
> having
> >
> > Ayelet, you basically parrot the official Israeli propaganda that we hear
> > over and over again on media but I'd be much more interested in what you
> > actually have to suggest. So would you like us to ignore the catastrophic
> > situation in Gaza because Hamas attacked first? (which, by the way, is
> also
> > not true but let's go with your skewed argument..)
> > Can you please advise as an Israeli how should we respond to the death of
> > thousands of children, destruction of hospitals and all of the
> universities
> > in Gaza and many other atrocities? Really interested in hearing this
> > instead of telling us something we hear over and over again every single
> > day on mass media. What should be the next step? Please guide us.
> >
> >     On Monday, 22 January 2024 at 10:49:50 GMT, Ayelet Baram-Tsabari via
> > Air-L <air-l at listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
> >
> >  Dear Air-Ls,
> > As you, I am worried about the loss of life in Gaza, but I cannot but
> > wonder about the omission of the trigger for the war: In the wake of
> > Saturday, October 7th, Israel was attacked by about 5000 Hamas
> terrorists,
> > who systematically slaughtered and burned alive family after family in
> > villages near the Gaza border, rapped women before killing them in the
> > music festival in Re’im, and sadistically tortured kids in front of their
> > parents.  One of those murdered was Yasmin Zohar, a M.Sc. student of a
> > friend of mine. Yasmin, her two daughters, her husband, and her father
> were
> > all brutally slaughtered in their home in Kibbutz Nahal Oz that Saturday
> > morning. Only her son Ariel, almost 13, survived. He moved to live with
> his
> > uncles in the city of Rishon LeZion – where I grew up. So many Harry
> > Potters were created that day.
> > This is a complex situation with a long history. At the moment, Israel is
> > responding to an immediate unprovoked terrorist attack against civilians
> by
> > Hamas, who publicly promised to do that again. Looking at the
> affiliations
> > of those responding in the list, I can safely say that your countries
> would
> > have – and in fact have already done so in the past – reacted similarly
> to
> > such attacks.
> > Like you, I also follow with horror what happens in Gaza. But sometimes,
> > it seems to me, that I care more about the hungry and futureless kids in
> > Gaza, than the Western Pro-Palestinians protesters who, in fact, work
> hard
> > to allow the continuation of Hamas control there. As I see it, this is
> > practically like supporting the Taliban's control over Afghanistan
> instead
> > of supporting Afghanis who try to get rid of the Taliban.
> > Best
> > Ayelet Baram-Tsabari
> > Technion – Israel Institute of Technology
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Air-L <air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org> On Behalf Of Alia ElKattan
> > via Air-L
> > Sent: Monday, 22 January 2024 10:39
> > To: Sky Croeser <scroeser at gmail.com>
> > Cc: Air-L <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Air-L] The difficult conversation we don't seem to be
> having
> >
> > Thanks so much for this Sky.
> >
> > Especially as every university in Gaza had been partially or fully
> > destroyed, hundreds of professors and academics have been killed, and
> > academic institutions outside Gaza have engaged in targeting and
> > suppression of pro-Palestine speech, I am fully supportive of an academic
> > boycott and a clear stance of public solidarity and action. Also
> interested
> > in any research efforts to better understand internet research in the
> > Palestinian context.
> >
> > Given the online and livestreamed nature of this genocide where we've
> seen
> > people telling us the horrific atrocities committed against them in real
> > time on all our internet platforms, often followed by news of their
> murder,
> > it is imperative for an association of internet researchers to take a
> > stance.
> >
> > Not to mention the nature of online suppression, disinformation, doxxing,
> > and harassment that has been at the center of a campaign to justify and
> > even celebrate the murder of over 30,000 people and the forced starvation
> > and displacement of millions amidst an intentional destruction of
> > lifesaving healthcare and telecommunication (including internet)
> facilities.
> >
> > Thank you for initiating this, and please count me in for any efforts
> > moving forward.
> >
> > Best,
> > Alia ElKattan
> > NYU Politics PhD student
> >
> > On Sun, 21 Jan 2024, 10:33 pm Sky Croeser via Air-L, <
> > air-l at listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > >
> > > This is a difficult message to write, and I know that it will probably
> > > open some difficult conversations. I realised this morning that I was
> > > shying away from having these conversations because I don’t want to
> > > create problems for the many colleagues who I respect and am fond of
> > within AoIR.
> > > And while I do care about all of you, sometimes care means being brave
> > > (and perhaps annoying) instead of being polite.
> > >
> > >
> > > So. We need to talk about Gaza. And we need to talk about Israel. Many
> > > of us have been speaking up individually, but our voices have more
> > > power when we bring them together. I have signed on to other open
> > > letters, but I think there are also important reasons for the
> > > Association of Internet Researchers to take a stance.
> > >
> > >
> > > *What I am suggesting?*
> > >
> > > I am asking for us to have a discussion about some form of public
> > > solidarity with Palestinians who are currently under attack, and with
> > > those within Israel and around the world who are speaking up against
> > > the actions of the Israeli state.
> > >
> > >
> > > It might involve a statement of solidarity for those who are under
> > > attack in Gaza and other parts of Palestine, and for people engaged in
> > > non-violent resistance to the actions of the Israeli state. It might
> > > involve joining the international call for an academic boycott of
> > > Israeli institutions complicit in the ongoing violence against
> > > Palestinians (the guidelines for which are available here <
> > > https://prot/
> > > ect.checkpoint.com%2Fv2%2F___https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2
> > > Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__bdsmovement.net_academic-2Dboycott%26d%3DDwI
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> > > >). It
> > > might involve a commitment to ask our own academic institutions to cut
> > > their ties with the Israeli state. It might take some other format.
> > >
> > >
> > > *Why now?*
> > >
> > > There are many acts of violence and oppression happening around the
> > world.
> > > Why should our academic organisation speak up on this, specifically?
> > >
> > >
> > > Because the scale of the violence is immense and continuing <
> > > https://prot/
> > > ect.checkpoint.com%2Fv2%2F___https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2
> > > Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__
> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oxfam.org_en_press-2dreleases_daily-2dde%
> 2F&data=05%7C02%7Cm.alper%40northeastern.edu%
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> > > >,
> > > exceeding that of any recent armed conflict. There is no end in sight,
> > > and the deliberate restriction of food, water, and medicine means that
> > > people within Gaza face starvation and disease as well as bombing and
> > > other forms of direct violence.
> > >
> > >
> > > Because many of us are based in countries which are prepared to
> > > condemn other atrocities, but are unwilling to issue more than
> > > lukewarm statements about the Israeli state’s violence against
> > > Palestinians. For example, Australia’s foreign minister Penny Wong <
> > > https://prot/
> > > ect.checkpoint.com%2Fv2%2F___https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2
> > > Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__
> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com_australia-2dnews_2024_ja%
> 2F&data=05%7C02%7Cm.alper%40northeastern.edu%
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> > > >
> > > “has met with Israeli relatives of hostages held by Hamas and assured
> > > them that she will continue to use Australia’s voice to call for the
> > > immediate, unconditional and safe return of all hostages” and affirmed
> > > Australian support for Israel, while only “raising concerns” about the
> > > humanitarian situation in Gaza. Australia has also supported the US/UK
> > > bombing of Yemen <
> > > https://prot/
> > > ect.checkpoint.com%2Fv2%2F___https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2
> > > Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__
> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
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> 2F&data=05%7C02%7Cm.alper%40northeastern.edu%
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> > > 4N2ZiYTRkYzpwOlQ&data=05%7C02%7Cayelet%40technion.ac.il%7C0b68e34e6333
> > > 43f73a8808dc1b265754%7Cf1502c4cee2e411c9715c855f6753b84%7C1%7C0%7C6384
> > > 15098722479601%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2l
> > > uMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=i%2F2tPnSqUC
> > > %2BFV2xKpG%2FBm2j8wmPb9KjINf6wEj6Z43o%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > > in retailation for their disruption of shipping routes to Israel.
> > > Where our own governments will not speak up for human rights, we have
> > > an obligation to raise our voices.
> > >
> > >
> > > Because AoIR is <
> > > https://prot/
> > > ect.checkpoint.com%2Fv2%2F___https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2
> > > Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__aoir.org_diversity-2Dand-2Dinclusivity_%26d%
> > > 3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DslrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ%26r%3D_qxx8hR7VThFwWvNFxP6nQ%26m
> > > %3DnITU5p9O-sngHqMCv9uJophceBAbhVeAPnRtuMSSssf6GRmC-UG5g8B7aYj9pqtG%26
> > > s%3Dzdb3GeVNJiWgHyIV5jiywyKQesYbA4F_Xv7En6vt9_g%26e%3D___.YzJlOnRlY2hu
> > > aW9uOmM6bzplMzJmMzg5OGQ5YjM3MDNjNTY5N2EwOTRjOWYzNTE0Mjo2OjU3MDM6ZTczYz
> > > c3ZWZmMjEwZWY0ZTY3MTRiMTllMjUxODNiYWU2NTc2NTg5MGJiODY3OTJlM2MzOGY0NGQw
> > > NTA1Mjc5ODpwOlQ&data=05%7C02%7Cayelet%40technion.ac.il%7C0b68e34e63334
> > > 3f73a8808dc1b265754%7Cf1502c4cee2e411c9715c855f6753b84%7C1%7C0%7C63841
> > > 5098722484903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2lu
> > > MzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=C0ji%2FQpWqP%
> > > 2B9AZRdJnL41PIknads6jqpw4CmbYBPyuw%3D&reserved=0
> > > > “is committed
> > > to the most fundamental principles of academic freedom, equality of
> > > opportunity, and human dignity.” The last university in Gaza has now
> > > been destroyed <
> > > https://prot/
> > > ect.checkpoint.com%2Fv2%2F___https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2
> > > Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__
> >
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot_news_24059315.israel-2d%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cm.alper%40northeastern.edu%7C3f38d0637ddb494ab08508dc1b7610fa%7Ca8eec281aaa34daeac9b9a398b9215e7%7C0%7C0%7C638415441135836706%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=q1gaSE6CU3ihdCRTK9%2FNCurmog4gwS3woy5LmrjeKao%3D&reserved=0>
> _______________________________________________
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